Watchtower Used to Teach Jesus Was Not an Angel and was "the Lord from Heaven" Who Died on a Cross!

by Sea Breeze in

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no wonder they instructed congregation elders to throw away old literature from kingdon hall libraries.

Sea Breeze

Not sure of your point Duran.

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Is 1st Century advice on marriage still relevant in today’s modern world?

by liam in

republicans want to make a law that forbids ‘uncontested divorce”.

they based this on this scripture.. matthew 19. is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”.

4 “haven’t you read,” jesus replied, “that at the beginning the creator ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ so they are no longer two, but one flesh.

Sea Breeze

Liam,

You titled this thread 1st Century Advice, then you switch to the OT. One third of the earths population only accept the NT as their sole authority. Jesus restored the original intent of marriage:

The proud religious law-keepers came to Jesus. They tried to trap Him by saying, “Does the Law say a man can divorce his wife for any reason?” 4 He said to them, “Have you not read that He Who made them in the first place made them man and woman? 5 It says, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will live with his wife. The two will become one.’ 6 So they are no longer two but one. Let no man divide what God has put together.”

7 The proud religious law-keepers said to Jesus, “Then why did the Law of Moses allow a man to divorce his wife if he put it down in writing and gave it to her?” 8 Jesus said to them, “Because of your hard hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives.

43

Is 1st Century advice on marriage still relevant in today’s modern world?

by liam in

republicans want to make a law that forbids ‘uncontested divorce”.

they based this on this scripture.. matthew 19. is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”.

4 “haven’t you read,” jesus replied, “that at the beginning the creator ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ so they are no longer two, but one flesh.

Sea Breeze

God's advice on marriage is timeless since he is the author of marriage.

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Watchtower Used to Teach Jesus Was Not an Angel and was "the Lord from Heaven" Who Died on a Cross!

by Sea Breeze in

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no wonder they instructed congregation elders to throw away old literature from kingdon hall libraries.

Sea Breeze

@Slimboyfat

I'm not a fan of Metzer:

Metzger was a radical ecumenist. He was at the forefront of producing “the Ecumenical Edition” of the RSV in 1973 and personally presented a copy to Pope Paul VI. “In a private audience granted to a small group, comprising the Greek Orthodox Archbishop Athenagoras, Lady Priscilla and Sir William Collins, Herbert G. May, and the present writer, Pope Paul accepted the RSV ‘Common’ Bible as a significant step in furthering ecumenical relations among the churches” (Metzger, “The RSV-Ecumenical Edition,” Theology Today, October 1977). Metzger also presented a Bible to Pope John Paul II.

Metzger was rationalistic in his approach to the Bible’s text. He did not believe in the divine preservation of the Scripture in any practical sense. In fact, he claimed that it is possible that we do not have sufficient manuscript evidence to recover the original text, because the manuscripts that exist might not even represent the text of the early churches. “... the disquieting possibility remains that the evidence available to us today may, in certain cases, be totally unrepresentative of the distribution of readings in the early church” (Metzger, Text and Interpretation: Studies in the New Testament Presented to Matthew Black, 1979, p. 188).

Metzger blatantly denied the infallible inspiration of the Bible.
Metzger brazenly claimed that some portions of the original Scriptures might have been unfinished or lost before any copies could be made. Of the original ending of Mark 16 he says, “Whether he [Mark] was interrupted while writing and subsequently prevented (perhaps by death) from finishing his literary work, or whether the last leaf of the original copy was accidentally lost before other copies had been made, we do not know” (The Text of the New Testament, p. 228).

Metzger advocated that Matthew incorporated errors in his royal genealogy of Christ (Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 1975, p. 1; cited from Thomas Strouse, “The Pauline Antidote for Christians Caught in Theological Heresy: An Examination and Application of 2 Timothy 2:24-26,” Emmanuel Baptist Theological Seminary, Newington, CT, 2001).

Metzger’s theological liberalism in regard to inspiration was expressed in the Reader’s Digest Condensed Bible. He was the chairman of the project and wrote the introductions to each book, in which he questioned the authorship, traditional date, and supernatural inspiration of books penned by Moses, Daniel, Paul, James, and Peter.

So, do you accept these early church fathers' statements below about Jesus being God?

https://www.berenddeboer.net/article/1_timothy_3_16.html#greek

My larger point is the one you keep dodging. The one about Jesus' spirit inhabiting a person like scripture says is necessary. How does a Unitarian invite a created being (angel) into his heart? How would that be different than spiritism?

What if that spirit decided to be malevolent at some point? See the problem I'm getting at? How does a Unitarian get around the fact that scripture plainly states that if a Christian does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his"?

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8: 9

The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is used interchangeably here. Does it concern you that Gods Word says you are not a Christian if you don’t allow the Spirit of Christ to reside in you?

None of us want to ever hear these terrifying words from the Lord: ”I never knew you” - Jesus

The tripartite nature of man made in the image of a tri-partite God taught in the bible eliminates this problem that a Unitarian must deal with.

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Watchtower Used to Teach Jesus Was Not an Angel and was "the Lord from Heaven" Who Died on a Cross!

by Sea Breeze in

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no wonder they instructed congregation elders to throw away old literature from kingdon hall libraries.

Sea Breeze

@Slimboyfat

Thank you for even acknowledging that early 1st and 2nd century church Leaders quoted 1 Timothy 3: 16 as "God" and not "He".

It creates an unmimaginable situation where if the verse was supposedly written as "He" all along until the 4th century until someone changed it, that you you would have so many church leaders quote that verse as "God" centuries earlier. If fact, it just provides more evidence of the unrelialability of the Alexdrian texts which account for less than 10% of all manuscripts. The same could be said for most of the "disputed" verses Unitarians try to use against Christians.

it could be compatible with JW theology because Jesus was the one who revealed the invisible God because he is the exact representation of his Father.

But that's not what it says is it? It could mean just what is says: God was manifest in the flesh.

Would you mind answering my questions as to whether or not you would allow the Spirit of Christ to inhabit you? If Christ is anything other than God, like an angel for instance wouldn't that be about the same as demon posession?

"If any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his". - Romans 8: 9

Don't you want to belong to Christ?

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Watchtower Used to Teach Jesus Was Not an Angel and was "the Lord from Heaven" Who Died on a Cross!

by Sea Breeze in

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no wonder they instructed congregation elders to throw away old literature from kingdon hall libraries.

Sea Breeze

@TouchofGrey

I think the amount of NT manuscripts is unprecedented in the ancient world. Christians have more reason to believe that the content of the original autographs was handed down intact more than any other ancient writing. If the NT bible can't be known, then nothing in history can be known.

There are only a few disputed text variants. Looking at how the earliest Christians quoted those "disputed" texts should resolve any doubt.... unless you are a heretic, in which case no amount of evidence or reasoning will convince.

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Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

Sea Breeze

JWs will claim that it is possible to know Christ and have a personal relationship with him.

We all know that JW's claim a lot of contradictory things. For instance, JW's almost universally claim Jesus is their Mediator (for prayers). But the WT's position and official church doctrine is that Jesus is Mediator ONLY for 144K Christian believers over the past 2000 years.

Of course their is no biblical definition of a Mediator being the bearer of prayers like the rank and file JW's believe. Scripture says that Jessu is the "Mediator of the New Covenant" the one "for the forgiveness of sins" in Mt. 26: 27-28.

Similarly, Of course JW's are going to claim they have a personaly relationship with Jesus. How can you claim to be a "Christian" religion and not claim that?

But can a person have a personal relationship with someone else if they never spoke to them even once?

I don't think so. JW's would never talk directly to Jesus in prayer. So, no; they have no relationship with Jesus at all.

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Watchtower Used to Teach Jesus Was Not an Angel and was "the Lord from Heaven" Who Died on a Cross!

by Sea Breeze in

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no wonder they instructed congregation elders to throw away old literature from kingdon hall libraries.

Sea Breeze

Modern versions don’t have Lord in this verse because it’s not in the critical Greek text based on the earliest manuscripts

SLIMNBOYFAT: I listed several modern versions that have it. Millions of Christians do not accept the authority of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus because of reasons previously mentioned, like redactions, write-overs, missingng text and the thousands of times they disagree with each other. Because of this, millions of Christians are more comfortable with the majority text, or the text thst has been handed down to us through the centuries.

There are 5800 NT manuscripts. Only about 10% seem to possibly agree with Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. 90 % agree with the Majority Text, which manuscrips enjoy near total agreement between each other.

As a Unitarian, do you believe quotes from disciples that the apostles trained have any bearing on bible readings you dispute? For instance :

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. - 1 Timothy 3: 16

The "Critical Text" reads "He" in place of "God"

But the early Christians all quoted this verse as "God was manifest in the flesh".

1 Timothy 3:16 as cited by Church Fathers

So, as a Unitarian, would you allow such evidence to be considered? Or does your belief in Unitarianism cause you to reject the testimony of the earliest Christians?

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Watchtower Used to Teach Jesus Was Not an Angel and was "the Lord from Heaven" Who Died on a Cross!

by Sea Breeze in

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no wonder they instructed congregation elders to throw away old literature from kingdon hall libraries.

Sea Breeze

Codex Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (late 4th century) disagree with 90% of extant manuscripts. They have faded and have been written over several times over the centuries, making it impossible to know what was originall written on them. Most scholars agree they had at leaast 4 different redactors. They disagree with each over 7000 times! They are loaded with scratchouts, and scratch-outs of the scratchouts. All of this makes it imposible for them to be reliable.

Millions of Christians have good reason to not accept their authiority.

Manuscripts that are far older than Vaticanus and Sinaiticus correcty render the vers as "Lord".

Analysis of Peshitta verse 1Corinthians 15:47

Translations

(Etheridge) The first man who is of the earth is dust, the second man the Lord from heaven.

(Murdock) The first man was of dust from the earth; the second man was the Lord from heaven.

(Lamsa) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the LORD from heaven.

(KJV) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

43

Members of congregation know it’s not true

by Mikejw in

we have lonely old folks and even some not so old.. they know the gb are not who they claim to be.. but they stay in the congregation because they are lonely.

i wonder what percentage of jws this is the case, i would guess a lot.

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Sea Breeze

Yes, they know the borganizartion isn't true, they know the leaders are idiots, and they know they have been fooled with end-times false prophecies.

But......................... they still love the lying theology. Lying theology like you can atone for your own sins just by dying and that there is no consciousness after you die and the main lie: If you got something wrong, no worries, you get to have a do-over and try to be good for a thousand years while God gives you timberframe houses next to waterfalls and your own personal petting zoo.

The resurrection of the unrighteous in NOT what the WT lyingly claims:

The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - Jesus

Having rejected the opportuninty to be judged based on the works of Jesus {the righteous), people will be judged on their own works (the unrighteous).

There will be no lions and bears to hug at the Great White Throne Judgment (after the Millenium), only cold hard justice.

Sea Breeze

Posts by Sea Breeze

1 Timothy 3:16 as cited by Church Fathers

Analysis of Peshitta verse 1Corinthians 15:47

Translations